Why Introverts Make Great Leaders

Yes, Introverts Can Excel at Leadership!

Matthew Pollard: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Introverts Edge podcast. I’m super ecstatic to welcome our next guest, Terence Lee. Well, he’s an author of a book called Quiet Voiced Fearless Leader, and he’s actually the author of an upcoming book called The Calm Effect. And I will say, I mean, firstly, anybody that’s listening that is in leadership. I mean, firstly, you should just get on Amazon and pick up a copy and I’ll say that up front right now, but I will say that Terrance should not be teaching you about leadership at all. At the age of 13…

Well, we’ll get into that story. But he did not want to be a leader. Absolutely. The last thing he wanted to do and then unfortunately or fortunately, I guess now that we look at it, after a horrible resignation and I’m trying to get into the story, he ended up thrust into leadership unexpectedly. And as we know, as introverts, that’s the last thing we want is unexpected things to happen.

And today, he has been a leader in multiple Fortune 500 companies. So if you’re a leader or an aspiring leader, this is definitely an episode for you. And Terence is a personal friend of mine, so I’m ecstatic to have him on the show just for that reason alone. And trust me, if he didn’t, I resonate with all the same things that I think about with introversion.

Terrance, welcome to the show, mate. Ecstatic to have you.

Terrance Lee: Absolutely. Thanks. I’m excited to be on.

How Early Experiences Impact Self-Perception

Matthew Pollard: And I want to let you have first, thank you for the amount of work you’re doing. To support introvert leaders across the board. I mean, your Instagram channel, your TikTok channel. And I know you’ve got a YouTube channel coming up, but this is more of a passion for you than, than anything else. And I’m just ecstatic to see people like yourself that are really pushing the envelope on the way.

People see introverted leaders and the fact that introverts make great leaders, which is ridiculous that people think they can’t. We can actually be the best leaders. But I appreciate you doing the work you’re doing. I want to I want to take a step back, though, and I want to really look at the early years of of yourself because, I mean, the thing I like about your story is that, like how I fell into sales, you fell into leadership.

But I think that for a lot of people, because you’re clearly an articulate guy now, and I need people to understand that it wasn’t always a comfort, comfortable trait for you. You had, kind of a change in your life that kind of happened at the age of 13. And I want to kind of talk about early Terrance and kind of what happened at that point or, you know, you were you always really uncomfortable kind of talking and speaking and, and being more of the charismatic face.

And, you know, what happened at 13 that that change that.

Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Matt. So, yes, I will say that I actually, when I was a kid, younger was a very loud kid for a while. I’m a kid that I grew up moving around the U.S. a lot. My dad took a lot of different jobs in accounting, so, I grew up in six different cities over the course of 18 years.

And so when I was younger, I was actually pretty outgoing and pretty loud. And a lot of that was because I wanted to get attention, you know, I was used to being the new kid in school. And so that’s how I was. And at the age of 13, what happened is I was in a quiet school, and something was said to me one day, my choir director, that really changed a lot for me.

And, long story short, I was a tenor in the choir, and me and her just had a really contentious kind of relationship. She always would kind of call me out for singing the notes wrong and various things. And one particular day, she started to play the song on the piano, and in the middle of the song she stopped playing.

She basically slammed the piano cover down, look directly at me in front of all my fellow choir mates. And she said, Terrance Lee, you need to stop singing. Just stop singing right now. And in a very agitated tone, you know, my classmates were laughing behind me. It was, it was a difficult day. It was difficult. And what’s interesting is after that, everything changed.

So I really went from being that kid that was more outgoing, being the kid that would raise my hand in class to not raising my hand, to not wanting to speak, to not wanting to say anything. And that carried into high school or carried into college and even carried into my professional career as an engineer. And I really just I didn’t realize that’s what was holding me back.

From Quiet Kid to Effective Leader

But internally, that’s what it was. And so eventually what happened is there was an opportunity to do a presentation because one of the lead engineers gave us two week notice. And so I was basically thrust into having to give this presentation to a very smart room of engineers. And the presentation went very well. I was only about a year or so into my career, and it boosted my confidence.

It just it did something for me that it was a different feeling. And after that day, a lot of people started to say they saw leadership potential in me, which I never saw in myself. And my career just started to progress. I got my first leadership role on a large aircraft program. I began to get larger and larger roles and more responsibility.

I eventually became a program manager, and now I’m actually, an associate director at a, defense and aerospace company in McKinney, Texas. So I say all that to say that there’s probably someone listening, that someone might have said something to them that impacted them, or they may have some self-doubt or some belief in their head that really is just not true.

And so I wrote Quiet Voice Fearless Leader to really speak to those people and to speak to fellow introverts that may have a misconception about leadership or feel like something is holding them back and are really ready to take things to the next level. So that’s why I do what I do.

Introverts and Extroverts Can Both Be Leaders…Or Not

Matthew Pollard: Well, I appreciate you sharing that. I, I think for a lot of people listening it it’s really interesting. I mean, don’t get me wrong, there are people that may be listening that have no aspirations to be a leader at all. And for those people like, I get it, that’s the totally fine. I’m not saying that you need to be a leader.

I’m also not saying you need to be in sales, right? Or I’m not saying you need to have your own business, but there is also a lot of people that believe they can’t be a leader because they’re introverted or because they like their confidence, which was shaken when they were when they were younger. And I think this is a a message is going to be really helpful for them.

I think, though, I want to quickly ask you because I mean, you I mean, you’ve seen you’ve been a supporter of my work for a long time and a consumer of my work for a long time. And, you know, that I, I see introversion as kind of more of a where you draw your energy from. And I’m interested in pre 13 year old Terrance.

Yeah. You was allowed keep it part of that. You know I see this happen with what do they call army brats where the loudest because they need to be seen because they’re so used to not being seen or having awkward. I’m now in another city. I’m now in another city, you know, for me. And I’m just I’m reflecting on this and I’m seeing that myself as a as a speaker.

It still takes energy for me, even though I’m the guy on the stage. It just takes a lot less now. But I’m wondering whether or not Terrance of pre 13, when you were behaving that way, did you still need to charge in your own quiet time and behaving like that? Did it take a lot of nervous energy from you?

At that time, even though you were actively doing it?

Terrance Lee: Yeah. Great question man. So it’s really interesting because I’ve been asked that question before when I say that I was loud earlier, a question I get asked is, well, were you really an extrovert or were you an introvert? Like, what were you before that incident? And as I reflect on it, what I realized is I always had, a level of introversion, to my personality of who I was, because even then, when I would be loud in class and do those things, I also would love to go home and write and just be to myself.

I also remember feeling kind of drained and kind of tired after. I would do all of that as well. And I at the time, you know, when you’re a kid, I don’t think you realize what that means. But when I look back on it now, I think I always was an introvert. I just was trying to be seen.

I was trying to be noticed. And in reality, a lot of that was not the core of who I was. It’s just I wanted to get attention.

Matthew Pollard: Yeah. And I understand that. I mean, I mean, you know, my back story and a lot of people listening to as well, I had a reading speed of a sixth grader in late high school. And because of that, I mean, you had to read these class novels to talk to, to write essays on and, and answer questions in English class.

And I couldn’t read. So I would constantly create these, let’s call them debates that were more like arguments and I would coerce those conversations purely because I had no idea what the book was about. And I needed to find out before the exam time. So because of that, I would get everybody to talk about the book from different points of view.

And sometimes it was a movie, and I could kind of stimulate the conversation from knowing something, but other times nothing at all. And I remember going home after doing what most people would have considered a really extroverted activity, being wiped and exhausted. But it didn’t mean I couldn’t do it. And I think that there were a lot of people that, and this is why I wanted to make this point really clear up front.

You know, what really happened? And I’m projecting here. So please tell me if I’m wrong. What I’m hearing is you’re an introvert. Is that I was acting in a specific way, and then your confidence was shaken. And because of that, you were an introvert that had confidence. Maybe self. And because of that, that self-efficacy pushed you to do it more and more.

And whether it was healthy or not to try and be that loud kid or not, that we will leave that to others to decide. But when that confidence was shaken, you then became kind of an introverted, reserved introvert or shy introvert because of that. And I think it’s important for people to understand shyness is different to introversion. And there are shy extroverts, which I think it would be the toughest, thing.

But I think first for people help me understand the confidence thing a little bit more, because I think for a lot of people, you know, I’m a big supporter of self-efficacy. And what I mean by that is I feel like people set these audacious goals and they’ve got no self-efficacy towards goal attainment at all. So they set them and then they don’t even strive towards them.

And I’m always telling people that, you know, you set shorter goals that you can knock out of the park and then slightly longer and slightly longer, you get further faster because you believe you can and you’ll start to build momentum and that self-efficacy will grow. I’m interested to to hear because it’s I mean, there was a long time period between 13 and when this event happened in leadership where you were given that opportunity, did it all instantly come back?

Did you need constant reinforcement or did it give you the pillar or a stepping stone to start?

Terrance Lee: Yeah. So I think that, you know, when that incident happened at 13, there was a long time between that and when I got that opportunity to do that presentation, I would say that there were moments in between there where I would, you know, have opportunities to do leadership type things, for example, running for student government or doing things like that.

And I would really never raise my hand. I would really never volunteer to do those things. But there were some times where I would I mean, I would have some flashes of, I would say confidence here and there. And it’s not that I would also say that I just had no confidence at all. I don’t I don’t want to give necessarily that impression.

But when it came specifically to things with leadership, when it came specifically to, you know, speaking in front of people or those sort of things, that’s where I think a lot of that that confidence had had left. But, definitely once I did that presentation, it’s not like I did the presentation. And then everything was just fine. And, you know, I was just this great leader, a great speaker.

No, that’s definitely not what happened. I mean, I definitely had some amazing mentors who, spoke into me. And honestly, I think had they not told me that. Hey, Terrance, I’d see you as being an amazing leader. Hey, Terrance. I see a lot of potential in you. I think that the more that that happened, it began to really give me just more of that confidence and more of that self-belief.

So I think, to answer your question, it was it was definitely a long road. But it was something that happened over time. And honestly, even today, I mean, there are times when I get nervous when I’m going to do an engagement or speak in certain situations, but I now have tools that are able to help me through that.

Introverts Tend To Leverage Systems and Goals Effectively

Matthew Pollard: I think that’s great. The great information for people, because I feel that even today there are certain things, new activities that get me anxious. And it takes time. But then I learn a system and I get less anxious, and then it takes less and less energy. But funnily enough, I remember when I got told I was going to speak at Microsoft Inspire.

That’s an 8000 person event. Gosh, terrifying for a minute. And I had to mentally process that because I’d only spoken in front of a few thousand people before, and that was a big stepping stone for me. So this is why I think it’s important for people to know that it doesn’t instantly happen. It’s a constant effort, and it’s a muscle that in a lot of ways you have to grow.

I can hear people thinking in their head and I want you upfront, Terrance, that I tend to confront you with what I feel like is going on in the heads of the introverted audience. And I heard certain people saying, yeah, but, Terrance, I’m not as lucky as you. I wasn’t just throwing a responsibility randomly, like, you know, I, I how do I get noticed?

How do I get my voice heard outside of posting on LinkedIn or something? How do I fight? I get an opportunity like that if it’s not gifted to me, especially when everyone thinks that extroverts make better leaders, or have the belief that the best leaders are extroverted leaders. And what would you say to someone that’s thinking that.

Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s a very fair thought because a lot of, introverts often find themselves in that position, because I think that a lot of times the people that are more extroverted, it can feel like, especially in corporate and business environments, that they just naturally get noticed. Right? They naturally get seen. Because so many people just assume the best leaders are highly extroverted. And so there are few things that, you know, I talk to introverts about.

And one thing is, you know, knowing what you want, you know, so what are your goals and what situation do you want to be in? Right. Because I think the first thing we have to do is evaluate where we are and are we in the right environment to get those goals met and get where we’re trying to go.

And then I think the next thing, and this is where it gets into asserting ourselves as introverts. And I do want to throw this in, because sometimes people can assume that being an introvert means that someone’s not as assertive. It’s not necessarily the case. I mean, introverts can be assertive, extroverts can be assertive. So, you know, sometimes we can box ourselves into that.

But for the introverts, it may feel like they don’t typically assert themselves as much. I always say to, again, for one, look at your environment. Are you set up to succeed to get to where you’re trying to go, and then next being able and being willing to ask for what you want. So if there’s some boss or if there’s someone in a business and they’re at a level that you want to be at, then maybe that person you ask them to be a mentor, or maybe you let that person know where you’re trying to go.

You know, in my career, I can say that one of the things that helped me a lot, I believe, is letting people know where I was trying to go. There is a specific person that I’m thinking of right now, and I let them know, hey, I’d like to be a program manager one day. And it was interesting because when some slots opened up and they had to hire some program managers, why, I’ve had that conversation.

So my name came up in that conversation and I ended up getting that role. So sometimes it’s just about, again, being in the right environment, but also being willing to let people know what you want. So I think for anyone that’s feeling like, you know, hey, how do I stand out? How do I speak up? How do I do that?

I think those are no two tips there.

Matthew Pollard: Yeah, I think that’s great advice. I think for a lot of people listening, you have to know what you want. I find I speak to so many introverts and when you ask them what they want, they either don’t know which is horrible, like to spend an entire life not knowing what you want, that it means you never get what you want.

Like how can you get what you want if you don’t even know what it is that you want? And it’s funny, I have this exercise that I suggest actually, for the people listening you. I mean, I have another podcast called The Better Business Coach, and it’s where I teach coaches how to get clients. But also, you know, how to be better at what they do, because I feel that a lot of coaches, they’re trying to figure out how to coach.

And then we also got to figure out how to sell. There’s a lot of things. So I kind of give away some templates. And but one of the exercises I give away in that is it’s called it’s episode 17. Forget about goals. Why is the key to success. And I, I, I help people kind of understand what it is that they want.

And I just get them to set a really simple exercise. Set three business called three personal goals one selfish, selfishly yourself and I find that I then ask them this other question, which is, you know, why is it so important that you summarize each goal in 250 words or less? And high achievers are really good at saying, well, this is what I want.

When you ask them why they find they inherit from somebody and you know, their mother, their father, drunk roommate, their had in college, they just run at it. And then I find the little introvert because they’re so logical and practical minded that they so matter of fact in their answers. So because of that, there’s no real a drive behind it.

Connecting with a Mentor

I want to I want to go back to your statement of I had to get clear on what I wanted, and then I and I love, by the way, you saying you didn’t walk in the manager’s office and you say, I want this position. You walked into Amanda’s office and said, I want to be mentored because I want to end up here.

I love that. I think that’s such a wonderful way to go about doing things. I guess what I would love to say is, how did that conversation go down about the goals and things like that? Was it? Did you have to articulate why it was important to you, or did you just say that this is where you want to head, like help me, run me through?

Because I can imagine a lot of introverts thinking, oh my gosh, I’m not going to walk into somebody’s office and say, I want you to mentor me. You know, why am I so special? And how did how did that conversation go down? And, you know, I’m a big fan of scripting. So a working model I think would be really helpful.

How did that conversation go down and what would you perhaps have improved if you were able to do it again? In retrospect.

Terrance Lee: Yes, absolutely. Great question. So I think that so much of it comes down to relationship, because what I’ll say about this particular individual is that before I had that conversation and I told them that I had a relationship with them already. So this is someone that I had been working with, is someone that was familiar with my work ethic.

They knew how I worked, and so I didn’t just go into the conversation cold. And I think that that’s very key. And this is one thing that, you know, I talk to introverts about as well is because sometimes, you know, again, we can be drained by so much interaction and so much socialization sometimes. But it is important.

It is important. And again we have to have our recharge time as well. We have to break away so that we can do that. But because I had a relationship with that person by the time I went to them and asked for that mentorship and mentioned be in a program manager one day, potentially they were very receptive. So it was a very warming conversation.

And in fact, when I mentioned it to her, you know, I don’t think she was very surprised by it. You know, it was kind of like, hey, Terrence, I’ve been waiting for you to say this. So it went very well. And again, I was given that opportunity. But I think had I not had a prior relationship, it wouldn’t have been as easy of a conversation.

I probably wouldn’t have felt as comfortable. So I can understand someone listening, thinking that that may not be an easy conversation, but when you have a good relationship with the person, when you’ve already been showing and building a reputation as well through your work ethic and what you do, I think it makes it a lot easier.

Matthew Pollard: I think it’s I think that’s important information for two reasons. One is that you kind of highlighted that the response was, it’s about time. And it’s funny how that keeps coming up for everybody. I speak to I you I know you said your father was an accountant. I had an accountant client recently that we put their prices up by.

It was between 4 and 500% per client. And I mean, mindblowingly enough, they retained like 82% of their clients, which was actually too many because they were, you know, they were working about 150% capacity, but, you know, they were working 100 hours a week, making less than, you know, 50,000 a year. And I mean, by the time, you know, obviously putting their prices up by that changed dramatically.

But for a lot of people they spoke to and they terrified originally said, we’re putting our prices up and kind of flinch to hear that. No. And then the customers response was, it was about time. I was like, you’ve been under charging me for years. Like how often we build this fear in our head that we’re going to be told we’re not good enough, that we’re not right, that we should we don’t deserve it.

But I think it’s important for a second reason. And that is because introverts, a lot of the time a protected by their bosses from leadership roles or protected from H.R. Because the best and brightest, if you promote them and they don’t want it, they leave and you lose your best price. Like I was a sales guy that got put in sales leadership and I wasn’t good at it originally.

Like I was given a team of 20 people, they all quit like they ran the risk of losing their best salesperson because I wasn’t a good manager. So if you try and put aspirations of promotions in front of somebody that potentially doesn’t want it, they feel like they should want it. They didn’t jump into the job and then you lose them.

So I think it’s important for us. It’s the two reasons. Help me understand the about time. Like why did why in your mind did he not approach you sooner and say, hey, I want you to be in that role? Was he protecting you? And I could be he or she. I don’t want to be gender specific, but, you know, were they protecting you in in a way, shape or form or were they waiting for you to elect that you wanted it because they didn’t want to, they didn’t want to put effort into you unless it was important to you.

Terrance Lee: I’ll be honest, I think in this particular case with her, I think she wanted to know that I wanted it. I think that she wanted to make sure that that was a role, because the industry that we’re in is very tense. When you’re working with the military on military contracts, very tight deadlines, it’s a very intense industry.

It is. And so, you know, being in a program management type of role, I mean, you’re responsible for programs that are valued over $100 million, you know, typically for, various areas of government. So you have to really want to do that. You have to really want to lead that team. And you typically are the one that falls on the sword when things go wrong as well.

So I think in this particular case, I think she knew I had the capability to lead. I think she knew that it was something I likely wanted to do, but if I had never went to her and had that conversation, I don’t know that it would have happened because I think she really know that I wanted to do that.

Matthew Pollard: So I think that’s so important for people to hear. She needed to hear that you wanted it, and then it happened and it might not have happened straight away, but it happened the moment they were looking for certain project managers. And there are a lot of people, and especially with the younger generations, that a conflict avoidant, that they quit their job rather than having that confrontational conversation because they think it’s going to be a confrontation where your manager was really nurturing in a lot of ways, right?

I don’t want to put it on him if he doesn’t want it, but if he wants it, that helps me. It serves the company it better is everybody. So for those people listening, I want to take that on notice for you, that if you’re listening and you don’t feel that your manager is going to be receptive, maybe you haven’t validated that.

Maybe you’re wrong. Like maybe ask yourself the question, when did I decide that? Really true? Because Terrence could have quite easily not had that conversation and then been very resentful for a boss that just didn’t give him any opportunities. So I I’m going to transition now because I feel like your new book, the, you know, the com effect.

I you talk about observation and you talk about poise in business and I feel that most introverts and I feel like there’s a line between a leader that has poise and observation versus a employee that’s not a leader that has poise and observation. I feel like a lot of introverts and I want to confront this first. A lot of introverts, like all I do is observe.

So like, isn’t that in the way of me obtaining success? Let’s talk about let’s talk about the powers of, of and observation first, and then let’s talk about perhaps why they are superpowers, not disadvantages.

Explore Topics, Debunk Myths

Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, with my first book, Quiet Voice, Fearless Leader, and everything that I write, I like to have a theme. So really, I would say the theme for Quiet Voice Fearless Leader was introverts can lead an introversion is a superpower. So debunk debunking a lot of myths around introversion and what that means. So that was a lot of that.

With the calming effect. We’re focusing on intentional calmness and how introverts can leverage that, whether they’re leaders or whether there’s someone working on a team or whatever the case is. And so when it comes to things like poise and observation, a lot of people, I believe, discount the importance of poise. I think a lot of times when we think about leadership and we think of leaders as society, we live in someone that’s the louder than life person in the room or someone that’s very gregarious, or they’re talking a lot and various things like that.

Well, sometimes people like that when it comes to a high pressure situation, they may not do as well. They may not be able to remain calm, they may not be as poised. And typically the way the leader is that flows to a team. And so what we get into with the book is how to develop poise. And for people that believe they already have a poise and have a calm, how to use that to your advantage.

And so that’s a lot of what we get into with that. And then with observation, observation is something that a lot of introverts do very well. I tell a story in the book of a friend of mine, and she was talking about one of her daughters being at a dinner party and how she didn’t say much at the dinner party.

But as soon as they left, she was able to tell her every single person that, like someone else at the dinner table and who didn’t like another person, and she gave her this whole breakdown. But it’s because a lot of introverts, we are naturally observant, and there are actually some ways we can use that to our advantage at work and in business, in ways that we rarely think about.

So that’s what we also talk about in the book as well. And one of the other keys.

Matthew Pollard: I appreciate you sharing that. I was hoping you were open to elucidating on some of those, ways that observation can be leveraged, in certain, leadership or even just employee style, environments.

Terrance Lee: Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, you know, one thing that I’ll say is, and a lot of people miss this, but, body language. Right. That’s one that a lot of people don’t think about. But when I’m in a meeting, I’m looking at everyone in that meeting. I’m not just hearing what they’re saying, I’m watching the way that they’re reacting.

So, for example, when someone makes a point in a meeting, there’s someone across the table. Scowl. Did someone across the table fold their arms? There are a lot of these very little things. And this is based on research. The majority of our communication is nonverbal. And so we get into the importance of that. We also talk about tone, a lot of people just being able to observe someone’s tone.

You know, we have conversations, we talk back and forth. And, you know, I give an example of a husband that comes home one day and he asks his wife, well, honey, how are you doing? And she says, I’m fine. Well, that can be said a number of different ways, and it can mean different things. It can be I’m fine with a very pleasant tone, or it can be I’m fine.

And it’s very dismissive. And you realize the problem. So those are just two areas right there. And we get into some specific ways that, you know, you can observe those things and you use that because what it tells you is it tells you the tone of the room. It tells you the tone of the person. And when you know those things, it helps.

Whether you’re trying to get new clients for a business or whether you’re working in a workplace and you’re just trying to understand, did I just communicate something that made someone upset that I communicate something, something that made them confused? All those things are very helpful when you’re trying to communicate at work or in business.

Matthew Pollard: Yeah, I think it’s really valuable for people to hear and how to leverage those as well, because I know when you’re selling, if the tone’s not correct, you know, to tell another story, if the tone is correct, you know, not to is is saying in sales like when you when the deal’s done, stop talking. Right. And what you find is that people that aren’t aware, especially extroverts, they just keep talking in the deal.

Unfollow like it just, you know, it falls apart. So introverts have real advantages. And I find this as well from leadership of teams. Sometimes you give your team member feedback and they get it and they appreciate it. And then you keep talking and they no longer appreciate it. They feel like they’re being micromanaged and they don’t appreciate it anymore.

So knowing these things is really important. I will say though, when I do, when I do sales calls, I know the whole world’s gone zoom. I still do them over the phone because there’s too much information, right? I can process tone really, really well. And because of that, I’m, you know, my closure rate’s really high. When I speak over the phone, when I go on the zoom, and, you know, when I’m speaking, when I’m talking to people and speaking events, they, of course, want to meet you on zoom, when they’re, you know, other, you know, things that you know, I’m part of.

They don’t. Oh they don’t. Well, they expect to still but that doesn’t mean that I need to. It means they expect it when they hear it’s a phone call. They’re fine with it. But I find that on zoom there’s so much stimulus because firstly, you know. Right. You right now, you know, it’s exhausting me because I can’t see the bottom part of your arm and like, your hands crossed, I don’t know.

And my brain wants to know and I, I can tell you posture and I can see your eye contact. And there’s all these things that take so much more energy from me. But it also makes me, I hope, to the people listening, a much better interviewer, because I’m seeing you lean in. I’m seeing you lean out. I know if the question you already had the answer in your mind, stop talking that so you can answer it, or whether you need me to in a lot of ways, you know, build out and frame it a little bit better.

So there are things that are helpful for an introvert to pay attention to. And sometimes it’s important for people to listen, to, to know that sometimes there’s too much stimulus. And you can control that by removing some so that you don’t fall apart. And that the reason I bring this up is, I know you talk about the importance of rest, and for me, I find that if I do zoom call off the zoom call off the zoom call, I need a lot more rest.

And if I just do phone calls, I need a lot less rest because I’m only listening to tonality and I’m following a sales process or, you know, networking process that I’ve proven. So it takes less anxiety and less energy from me. But let’s talk about rest for a second, because I feel like introverts feel like it’s a bad thing to have to rest, right?

Like, why do I have to go and rest? Like I’m being sent to my room? I am, I am I a, child that’s misbehaving versus the extrovert that can just go, go go go. Help me get beyond the feeling guilty or bad, or like I’m letting my boss down by taking some time in the middle of the day and help me understand the power of rest.

Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I will be completely honest here. I used to feel the same way. I used to feel like the fact that I’m drained after all of these zoom meetings and all of these calls and all these conversations, you know, why do I need to break away from everyone, you know, why can I not be like everyone else?

And I feel bad about that so I can completely understand that mentality. And the real reality is it goes back to something you mentioned earlier, which is just energy, right? And so when we understand who we are as introverts and when we understand how extroverts are, we understand that we just operate differently. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

You know, I think a lot of it starts with leaning into who we are. Once we realize that we have an introvert, a personality, and we realize that not only is that okay, but we love it, and that’s great. And we can lean into who that who we are, then it helps with that. Right? And so knowing that you need to recharge, knowing that when you recharge, you have more energy to keep going.

It just makes it a lot easier when you accept that. So I think for me, when I got to that point of acceptance, then I realized like, hey, I can probably do a few calls and I can have a few meetings, but after a certain number of hours, after a certain number of conversations, I’m going to have to break away for a little bit.

And not only is it good for us, it can also make us more productive. I found that for myself when I’m on back to back calls after a while with no recharging, I get less productive and I’m not as good in my work. So it’s not only good for me, it’s good for, you know, my team and I believe the people I work with as well.

Matthew Pollard: Yeah, I, I agree with that and I will, I will say, my team all knows that I’m introverted. I mean, I write books on it, but they knew that I was introverted before the books existed, but in my last businesses, because the truth was, sometimes I’m really passionate about everything that I do. And sometimes, you know, those five year olds that they stay up past bedtime and they then don’t.

They don’t know how to control their emotions, and they get exhausted and they’re crying, and now they can’t go to bed and they can’t. You can get to that stage as a grown adult. And I found that my team needed to be aware of that too. So I mean, I got very good as I as I got older at monitoring my energy levels.

And it’s hard to say to your executive assistant, hey, can you make sure that if you see me starting to push myself, let me know. Just warn me that I’m because the trouble is, and you say that thing to a staff member you didn’t want to say, or you put something in the wrong way, or you do something so silly that years of putting and fostering a relationship with someone can break.

And it’s okay to let people know that you’re introverted, you have energy levels, and your team members want to support you. And as a leader, it’s okay to be vulnerable with the people in your team. And it doesn’t mean they’re gonna say, oh, you’re an introvert. So of course, you know, you know, you need to go back into your room now like it’s not a bad thing.

Everybody has the burdens to be extroverts, as we might say, are the most empathetic, that they perhaps are the best listeners. We all need to be comfortable understanding each other’s strengths and weaknesses. And truthfully, you shouldn’t be using it to take advantage of each other. We should be using it to help each other lean into their strengths while protecting them against their weaknesses.

Like you’re getting your energy levels zapped or, you know, helping them grow. And the one thing I love about working, you know, and a lot of people here listening perhaps work for themselves. But when you’ve got a few team members, the one thing I love about working together as a team is you can be there for each other that way, and if not, you’ve got a culture issue and you need to fix that, you know, definitely.

Terrance’s Introvert’s Edge

I wish we had more time to talk further, Terrence, but I need to ask you the last question that I ask everybody on this show, because everybody feels that. And I think, especially when it comes to things like leadership, is that introverts have massive disadvantages. And, you know, I know it’s further from the truth, but because of that, I like to confront the stigma by asking everybody that comes on the show, what do you consider your introvert edge?

Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So my introvert edge, I believe, is the ability to actively listen, the ability to actively listen. Now, a lot of people hear the word listen and they think they know what that means. But I think most people don’t really know what it means. I think that we hear people a lot of times. I don’t think we listen to people and really absorb what they’re telling us.

And the reason that’s an advantage for me is because when I’m in a discussion, some of my more extroverted counterparts, they like to talk a lot more. So they’re typically attack a problem with talking. And there’s going to be a lot of discussion back and forth. And sometimes when you do that, you completely miss what someone’s actually trying to say.

Whereas with me, a lot of times in my situations, if someone comes to me with an issue or a problem, I want to truly understand everything on that person’s mind. I want to understand their issue. I want to understand what approach they’re thinking is best. I want to understand what their worries are. And the more that I listen to that, I’ve found I’m able to solve more problems and I’m able to be a lot more effective.

So I think for a lot of introverts, it’s an edge that, you know, we have that a lot of us sometimes don’t even realize it’s that much of an edge. But I think for me, that’s absolutely mine.

Matthew Pollard: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. And, you know, it’s funny, I remember my brain goes back to Derek Lewis, my ghostwriter on the Introverts Edge book series. And what’s interesting is he has this great ability to truly listen and think about ideas. And it was to him, a huge disadvantage when it came to sales because he would get on a conversation and it’d be the I mean, he’s actually the reason I went to doing video coaching before that.

I only did some coaching, but there was such long pauses between me saying something and him responding. I thought the caller dropped out. And what was interesting is, of course, that felt like a disadvantage on the sales call because the person on the other end is saying, well, he’s not responding. Our rapport level wasn’t great and it was a disadvantage the way it was, but instead I got Derek to respond, like he’s saying, I’m going to ask you a few questions now and I hope that’s okay.

And just so you know, up front, I’m a really deep thinker and I’m always thinking about how to best structure your book, your ideas, your concept. So after every time you answer, you might find there’s this weird, awkward pause afterwards. And that’s because I’m really considering how that pieces together with the the way I would, I would structure your book because I want to make sure that I ask you every question that I need to to be able to provide you the best suggestions, and I hope that’s okay.

Like, who’s going to say, no, I don’t want you to do that. I want you to give me unthought out questions and no detail, like no one’s going to sign that. Right? So the fact of the matter is that observation, because I have an active listening, a huge superpowers. But sometimes you need to preface that so that people are aware that of what you’re doing and realizing that you’re leaning into a strength, it’s not a weakness that you don’t respond straight away.

And because sometimes active listening, it drives me nuts. We had Don Williams on the show and I was. And by the way, you should check out that episode, by the way, if you haven’t everyone listening. But I was really blown away at how Don waited to respond and really considered my questions before he answered. And yet, he’s such a successful podcaster that most people would expect that as soon as somebody asks a question, you respond.

As soon as somebody answers, you ask a question. I’ve been on his show, he’s been on mine. And both times there was a long pause. I will say he is a different person on both versions of that, but they’re both planned and prepared and just really, really powerful. But I, I, I really love the how you put that to active listening.

I appreciate you sharing that, Terrence. Look, I wish we could go down the further with this rabbit hole with you because, you know, leadership is something that I feel is so important for a small business owner and for a career professional. But we don’t have time. We’re out of time. For those people that are just hearing about you today, where would you suggest the next step should be to find out more about, you know, you and the content that you have?

Terrance Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So, definitely follow me. I’m most active on Instagram, so my handle is at the Introvert leader. I’m also on TikTok at the Introvert leader as well. And, the huge thing that has just rolled out is the first chapter of the new book, The Comic Effect. So, that is available for free, available for download.

And, man, I’m sure you’ll have that information so people are able to access that.

Matthew Pollard: Yeah, absolutely. And we’ll put the link in the show notes for everyone to definitely check out, you know, the first chapter of that. And I will say that, you know, it’s, the quiet voice feels later as well. And, and I believe this new book, is coming out with one as well. And Terrence always puts really cool workbooks, into each one of the books that he does to help people because, you know, everybody listening knows this about me.

I have no interest in this being an entertainment show. I have no interest in this being just an inspiration show. While I do want to confront the stigma around introversion, I’m much more focused on helping people actually take action towards changing the way they behave in the workplace in this small business, while staying true to their introverted self.

So I will say, for anybody that’s planning on checking out, you know, Terence’s books, I mean, definitely check out the first chapter, but go back and of of the calm effect, but go back and check his first book and make sure you use the workbook and do it is step by step in the implementation. But Cass, I appreciate you being on the show, mate.

Thank you so much for everything you shared to our audience today.

Terrance Lee: Absolutely. I appreciate you having me on that. That’s been great.

Matthew Pollard: Terrific. Well, look, thank you to everyone again, for listening to this show. Please, if you got value out of this content, you know, please post a review for the podcast. It gives it a ton of credibility and makes more introverts like yourself. You know, trust my work and get it seen by so many more people. So please take a second.

It takes only really half a second, really, to click a button and tell other introverts as a signal that this show is something that they should trust to become the best version of their introverted self. But thank you so much for joining today, and we look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Cheers, everyone.