How to Build a Career You Love as an Introvert

Matthew Pollard: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Introverts Edge podcast. I am ecstatic to have you with me again today, and I’m really excited about introducing my next guest. Diana Murray is, well, let’s just face it, she shouldn’t be where she is today and the only way she got there was through our own hard work and her own grit and their willingness to take responsibility for where she is and where she started and every single step along the way.

And what I’m really excited to share with you about her journey is that she had some really humble upbringings. She had a brother that she was not allowed to overshadow, and she had a career that really she loved on. And but then through a complete focus on what the next step was and, and methodical nature was able to get into some senior positions in IBM and now at Lenovo.

So I’m really excited to share her story. And I will say I found her by stalking her on the internet. And so while she will tell you that social media is not her favorite thing, the authentic nature and why she showed up led to the dialog that we’re having today. So Diana, thank you so much for joining me today.

Diana Murray: Thank you for having me. It’s yes, it’s quite a surprise, but I’m very pleased to be here. Well, actually, let’s discuss that.

Matthew Pollard: Of course. I want to ask you about your journey. But one of the things that you did before we got to today’s interview is you did your research, and you did what I guess a lot of introverts would do. You did your homework, but then you sent me a really authentic email saying, you know, I’m not a bestselling author.

I’m not I $1 billion company. Like some of the people that you have on your show. This is who I am. And I just, you know, if you don’t want to interview me, I totally get it. Now that you know, this. But if you do, I would still love, you know, regardless, I’d still love to talk to you.

And I’d love to, be on the on the show if that is still a fit. Now, I at that point invited you to be on the show. I feel like a lot of introverts, when they’re given an opportunity, will sometimes turn things down, or they’ll come in with preconceived ideas where you put it all on the line and just send a really well thought out email.

I’d love to understand what was going through your head at that time, and why you felt that that was important.

Introversion and Authenticity

Diana Murray: So the first thing is, I did what I don’t ever want to do in the on the false pretenses, right. But I, I always feel that, I’m probably not that important, and I shouldn’t be that person. I’m very on stage or whatever it is. And I have thought about it actually sort of in background processes.

It were so for weeks, actually. How would this work? Was I what would I want to say and what’s relevant? And I think it’s natural to me to leave it to the last minute, of course, because I’ve be thinking about it and thinking about it. But then to actually send you something that says, you sure about this? But I also know that if every time I speak to somebody who’s had the same sort of challenges that I have, I learned something new.

And so I’m quite happy to share at this stage, it’s going because mature students in the career process, just happy to share anything that will actually give somebody else a little bit of help or move things forward for them. Yeah, I appreciate.

Matthew Pollard: You sharing that. And I think one of the things that I’m really focused on in the Introverts Edge podcast and yes, sure, we’ve got bestselling authors and we’ve had talent is $1 billion companies and some very, very senior executives that we’ve we’ve interviewed. But there are a lot of people that are aspiring for that. What they, they want to do is have a job where they get to do what they love, where they feel like they make a meaningful impact.

However, sometimes they don’t ever try to get that because they believe that they can’t because of their introversion, or they don’t strive because of that. And one of the biggest things that that I focus on is helping people realize that they can take responsibility for where they are. And I’m not saying that everybody should aspire to be in leadership will be in sales, but those that do aspire for those things should know that there’s a path for them and those that perhaps don’t aspire, because it’s never occurred to them that they can should know that there’s nothing in their way.

And then once they realize that, then they can decide whether or not they want that kind of career path or that kind of success or not. And I think that throughout your life is. And for those people that are listening, we’ve spent probably about 40 minutes really thinking through what we’re going to discuss today so that everybody has a great action packed episode.

But there was a lot of methodical decisions in everything that you did to get you to show up the right way, the way you wanted to, and for who you wanted to, right throughout that journey. And I can’t wait to get to that. But before we get started, you were kind of a light recognition of being an introvert.

And I really want to take you back to those kind of humble, beginnings and understand kind of how you interpreted your introversion when you didn’t have a word for it, and then kind of what led you into that discovery of introversion.

Diana’s Early Introvert Life

Diana Murray: So you’re right. I, I in the early days, I didn’t consider it to be anything to do with introversion. What I knew was I grew up in the countryside, so I didn’t have a big, social network because I went to school that was some distance away, so I couldn’t stay and do stuff after school. All those little limitations.

So I grew up being that safe, socially awkward, and not with a lot of social interaction and just believing that being shy was just a sort of natural state of affairs and also a bit of a failing, but also a better thing for a girl, a bit too outgoing. We don’t want girls getting above themselves. And so then I obviously I moved into my first job was in the agricultural environment, which went with everything else.

And I started to learn to talk to customers. And by the way, I now I look back and I realized working for a tiny business, there were ten people in this company. I’m seeing every single step of the process in a business some while ago has actually still been enormously good stead. And so the first thing I found myself was just talking to actual customers when they came, not get it by the pay or whatever.

Then I moved into a role where I had to answer the phone, and I can promise you that was the most terrifying thing I’d ever done at that stage. And then, worse than that, I had to phone people I didn’t know. But of course, with repetition comes for many hours. And I got the hang of it.

Then I went off. Then I went to university and I was a bit reclusive at university. And looking back now, I think that’s a shame. So I think I made my life harder than I could have done. But to break out of who I was at that stage, I wasn’t there. Then I obviously because I was then a mature student, so I had to earn a living.

So I was doing various temp jobs, and it was through one of those temp jobs that I fell into what became a career in marketing. So, I went along to do I went home to do a telemarketing job, which was supposed to take one day, as the one thing I had learned by then was I could pick up the phone and talk to people.

So I picked up the phone to talk to people. And because I did it completely, with no sort of side and no idea what I was doing, not only did I do it pretty effectively, but I’d also done the job I was recruited to do in half a day. So then they gave me something else to do, and the rest is history.

So I stayed with that company, moved into a marketing job. But then I knew the one thing I did know was that customers. You have to think how a customer seeing is a person. And so that enabled me to move into a marketing job. And I learned a lot in lots of different ways through that job, through agency work.

I knew that I was dealing with people in a one on one type of scenario. I loathed presenting, but I never really got. I attributed this to shyness and to just to the way I’ve grown up pretty. And then when I was at IBM, I was very lucky because I joined IBM at a time when there was a lot of investment you could still do face to face personal development stuff.

And I had a really lovely coach on one particular session. She asked us to put ourselves on a map, which was based on Myers-Briggs, and I have no idea where to put myself because it’s the extroverted. Well, I don’t really know detail pictures. So, you know, intuitive for fact. I truly just I couldn’t place myself on that map.

And at that point I realized that there were things that I had learned to do because it’s what the business expected. So with ways of presenting myself that I had learned, and I then lost sight of what was underneath. And this woman was very good. And she took a day then to do a full sort of Myers-Briggs analysis with me.

Then suddenly I had this absolute moment of insight. She told me two things which don’t laugh, but they changed my life. One of them was she helped me to understand that the introversion was to do with where I drew my energy from. It wasn’t just to do with how I felt about talking to a lot of people.

It was actually to do with the fact that my energy came from time on my own, and peace and quiet to recharge. And the other thing she told me was that in a room of 100 people, there would only be 1 or 2 that I would really gel with instantly, and that they took me from thinking I’m failing because I see other people going to work room, and I can’t do that to understanding.

It’s okay if you develop a formula, you could. There are ways of managing it. It’s never going to be the thing you comfortable doing. So give yourself a treat afterwards and slope off and have a little bit of quiet time. Go for a walk or whatever it is. Yeah, I think that’s really helpful advice.

Leverage Your Introverted Tendencies into the Right Career Path

Matthew Pollard: So firstly, you’re 100% right. I cringe every time somebody says they found out that introversion was just where you draw your energy from, but not for the reason you’re saying it. It hurts me that most people look down their nose at introverts, and I always tell you offline that there was a survey that I was part of that I conducted with a whole bunch of people in senior leadership of sales just asking if they’re introvert or extrovert.

And I get these responses like, oh, I was introverted, but don’t worry, I’m not any more. Or oh, I’m a recovering introvert. And I for me that it kills me to see that. I mean, who’s actually going to answer the Myers-Briggs questions? Honestly, if you feel like your boss sees introversion that way, the the thing that I will say, though, is that it seems like a lot of what you’ve talked about came from two things.

One was that even back in the days of telemarketing, you pushed yourself to do the uncomfortable you took because you were willing to get on the phone, and you seem to have found advantage there because you were actually you quite good at it. And then when you moved into marketing, while that, especially in the industries that you’re in, is kind of male dominated and sometimes had some really big personalities, you found a way to build system and process to, to, to that, to succeed.

And even in, in networking, is there a reason why you decide that it’s your problem to solve? And then and is there a path for you to work through the strategies or finding the strategies to succeed?

Diana Murray: So I think there was a moment even before I’d got leave. It was the moment that made me make that decision that I was going to go to university, and I packed in a job and a marriage to do it. I think there were there was a light bulb moment. Then when I suddenly realized I got this narrative in my head, they want me to do this.

They have a name display where, I don’t know, think I should do that? And I just had I thought, hang on a minute. It’s nothing to do with day. This is down to me. And from then on it’s always been. I knew after two beforehand I don’t like flying, but I realized that if I didn’t fly, it would stop me from doing a lot of things I would do.

So I learned that I had to just find ways of making myself do difficult things. And so in situations that involve lots of people, it’s about just the most basic thinking, okay, in one hour this will be over and they can’t physically hurt me. It’s just a having a set of strategies that allow me, if I want to get to a particular place at a particular level, if I want something to happen, then I have to find a way of managing it and I give myself those rewards.

I said a little bit of a breather, a break, a bit of time to myself. So to get my energy back. And one thing I’ve noticed is that when I meet people, if I say I’m an introvert and I do quite openly, they say, oh no, I’ve never thought that. And it’s because the thing that does carry me through in most of business situations where I need to in some way hold the floor is because if I’m doing it, it’s because it’s something I’m passionate about and that comes back to it.

Whatever I’m doing has to align with my values, because then that passion will give me the energy to get through the hard parts, and then I can regroup afterwards in my own time. There prove little wrong. So I think of trying to answer your question, but.

Matthew Pollard: No, you’ve answered it well, actually. So I feel that one of the things that I talk about and we discuss this offline, that I believe that, you know, I think it was Jim Carrey that sort of said, I wish everyone got the opportunity to be rich. So they realized how insignificant it actually was. And I feel like especially in the small business world, everybody wants to have a rapid growth business.

But there’s nothing worse than a rapid growth business with customers you don’t like in a business you can’t stand. And I think that you’ve kind of found that same thing with career. There’s nothing worse than having a job you don’t like working for a boss that you can’t stand or a company you can’t stand. And I think that there needs to be for you to enjoy doing what you do.

The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy of Responsibility

There needs to be a connection with passion. As a matter of fact, chapter two in my networking book is, you know, for introverts, if we’re not connected with our passion, then we’re missing out on this avalanche of energy. Because if you get an introvert to talk about what they love to talk about and do what they love to do, they’ll talk to anyone and they’ll talk their ear off until, you know, they they make the movement that they need.

And I think that that that’s really important. I want to go back because I know that. And we won’t mention the guilty here, but I know that you had a job that you love. You’ve had jobs that you loved, where you worked for leaders. And you know a lot of words for those people that are familiar with, like the iOS concept, you know that you played the integrator role, but they were roles where you played that second in command, the wing person, if you like it, where it went really, really well.

There are other organizations and people where it didn’t go really well. And I think one of the things that you’ve got yourself to a level of success that I know a lot of people in this that are listening to this aspire to get to, but you didn’t always focus on the creation directory as much as being the ability to be passionate, authentically showing up and making sure that you worked for the right person.

So there was this balance between getting ahead and taking responsibility and learning the skills, but an unwillingness to accept working for somebody in a way that you didn’t want to show up. How did you navigate that? The the compromise, the not making the compromise.

Diana Murray: So I think it’s you need a little bit of time because obviously takes time to form relationships with people or indeed companies. When, as you say, there have been times when I’ve been really, really happy in it’s been because I’ve had a really good relationship with somebody who recognized the value that I brought, but also knew that I didn’t want to be the front man.

Where it’s been hard then it’s been because we had different values, different approaches to life and the thing is, nobody has. I wish I’d spent more time at the office on the gravestone. So there’s a certain point when you think, okay, this isn’t working for me. And so for me, it’s something where I had to take the decision.

And the decision is either find a way to work better with this person, and sometimes that means having a conversation that says, this isn’t working for me. And sometimes out of that, actually a really good relationship was emerged, because if somebody is open to that kind of conversation, then sometimes you can find real value in it. And other times you just have to think, okay, this is going to work for me.

So my part time job over the next six months or whatever is to find that next step where it will be something and I characterize it, is I want to make a difference. It’s I would describe myself as a facilitator, but then I think that’s really how I’ve been effective. But if you put me into a situation where facilitating things makes a big difference, then obviously that’s a benefit for everybody.

Sensitive People Still Need to Initiate Their Next Steps

Matthew Pollard: So one of the things I’m hearing, though is that, well, actually, I’m going to ask the question rather than make an assumption. It sounds to me what a lot of introverts wish that their boss gave them more opportunity. They wish that their boss saw them in different ways, and they wish their boss would initiate some of those conversations about, you know, I want you to be more my second in charge or my wing person.

Everything that I’m hearing from you is it wasn’t they initiated. It’s more you initiated. And what I would be really interested because I know that a lot of introverts don’t want to take responsibility for taking that action, though I believe that a lot of times they need to. What advice would you give to them?

Diana Murray: I, in my experience. So first of all, there’s no such thing as security. Once you acknowledge that, then you know that it’s on you to make things the way you want them. It’s in my space. It’s not. It’s never the boss’s responsibility. People, they don’t look around the chorus line, pluck someone out, say that’s the next stop.

And if they did, by the way, I would never want to be a star anyway. So you have to be yourself. You have to think, what is it that I want? And it’s going to mean doing some things. I got back to my lesson about flying. You know, sometimes I think that’s going to be a really tough thing for me to do.

But if it’s going to get me to the place I want to get to, then I have to find a way to do it. And then it’s down to, okay, so I am an introvert. It’s not easy for me to stand up and present, so how am I going to do with that? And I’m going to deal with it by planning, planning, planning and only putting myself in that situation when it’s something I care about enough that that passion will carry me through doing it.

So if in fact, that goal that I thought the thing that I thought that my boss should be giving me the opportunity to do, if it’s not something that I could make it happen in that way for myself, maybe it isn’t actually what you really want, and knowing what it is that is really, really important to you is then it doesn’t matter whether you’re an introvert, an extrovert, it what matters is that you have the passion to get to where you want to get to, and then you will find the strategies.

Matthew Pollard: You know, I think that’s really interesting. I think that’s really interesting because what you’ve just highlighted is everybody is thinking, I wish my boss would give me more responsibility. What you’re saying is, no, that’s not actually what you want. You want your boss to give you responsibility in something that you’re truly passionate about. So the pain’s worth the gain and you go in the right direction.

How could your boss ever know what you’re passionate about unless you tell them? And I feel like a lot of people listening right now may not actually even know what they’re passionate about. And May, and therefore they’re hoping their boss knows something that they don’t even know. And therefore, and they’re also hoping their boss is, is going to be willing to have a conversation that you’re highlighting.

Your boss is unwilling to have. So it’s kind of like a double impossible. The boss has to know what you’re passionate about and have a conversation that isn’t their responsibility. So for those people that have just heard, I need to know what I’m passionate about and I need to be willing to have that conversation. But I don’t know what I’m passionate about and I’m too scared to have that conversation, or I’m willing to have that conversation right now.

Can you help them push themselves past that barrier?

Diana Murray: So this is where the introvert introverts real strength actually comes in, isn’t it? Because we are people who reflect and for me that meant reflecting a lot. I’ve been lucky. I’ve had some help, some pointers from people. I do know that always you have to do it for yourself. Somebody can give you a list of questions. They answer these questions, but in the end you have to do it and you have to do it with brutal honesty.

You know, I am not telling you that this thing, I am reasonably talented at that thing. These. And by the way, typically the things that you’re best at, all the things that you really love doing. So we also have to accept that the bits of jobs, that there’s always a bit of the job, no matter how fabulous the job that is, is something you don’t like doing.

But if you can take time out to reflect on what are the things that give me energy, what are the things that I really love? What would success look like? Not just in terms of my work life, but also what would success look like for me as a person in five years, ten years, whatever it is, what are the things that need to have happened to make that possible?

Then that starts to give you a frame for what is the sense of direction. And I think I, I have known people who genuinely had a ten year career plan that said, I have to move from this job now. I’ve never been like that. But I do think you need to have what you might call a North Star so you know your direction.

This is the kind of person I want to be in this kind of function, and I know that I want to either be mediocre or working in a company that has these kind of values that align with mine. You can work with that, because then you can have a conversation with your boss that says, this is what I really think I could bring to you, if you can help me to tap into that.

We both win. And I believe that in the organization you’re in today. Or you have to think, okay, it’s not gonna work in this organization. So now I have to do my own thing or move on somewhere else.

Matthew Pollard: Well, I think you highlighted something powerful. There is no security in job like, I’ve always been an entrepreneur. And people like, why would you take that risk? I’m like, I watched my dad get laid off every time he thought his job was safe. So that security just doesn’t exist like it used to. And I don’t think, does it?

Never did. Okay, well, I’m glad to hear that. Well, I thought it was just something my generation didn’t get a chance to say, but I, I as soon as it’s not financially positive for somebody to keep you on, unfortunately, that job goes away. And I think especially in today’s job market, if you’re not deciding what you want and going after it and being willing to lose, like leave one job to go into another, there’s never been a time where it’s been easier, especially with the fact that we just less people today, today than it was yesterday.

And that’s always going to be true for a very, very long time. And that’s why so many companies are hiring anybody they can they can take, which gives you the opportunity to really get that job that you want. But without yourself willingness, without having a willingness to ask the right questions of yourself. You know, I remember and by the way, I’m definitely not suggesting this book because, well, actually, I just truthfully didn’t like the book that much.

But the first chapter is amazing, and I will say it has a terrible name as well. I’m not building up this book very well, I know, but the first chapter is definitely worth a read. It’s called The Way of the Superior Man, and I think it applies regardless of gender. But it talks about how men used to go into the forest and listen to nature and decide what they want to do, and today we’re like, what is it I want in my life?

Oh, my phone’s ringing. Oh, this is pinging. This is going on. We never actually take time to really think about what we want. And then if we do what I find, especially us internal thinkers, we’re so practical, so we go, well, what’s feasible? What could I do? You know, in my limited, you know, in my negative self-talk mindset, what do I think I can achieve as opposed to what do I truly want?

So I feel like we need to give ourselves time, and we have to move away from what’s practical and actually think about what we want to go back to. Jim Carrey, you know, he has the same way. You know, he learned a lot from his father, who could have been a famous comedian, but instead decided to be a do the practical choice and be an accountant instead.

And I mean, he like, he got laid off many years later and the family had to do what they could to survive. And he said, I learned a great deal from my father, but nothing more important. Then you can fail at what you don’t want, so why not take a chance at what you love? What you’ve kind of highlighted is we need to take a chance to think about what we love.

We need to be open and not practical to any of the boundaries that we might have preset ourselves. And then that passion and a willingness to do the work will actually get us to be successful, because it’s self-perpetuating. It’s I am passionate and therefore I’m willing to have that conversation or do that uncomfortable thing which perpetuates success. When we’re practical, we tend to not do the work because we don’t care.

And then we sit in that chair of, I hope my boss would give me more responsibility, not knowing what that is or whether we’d even want it. So it’s actually a spiral up or spiral down. Is there anything that you would disagree with what I’ve highlighted, or any other framework that you would suggest that somebody takes with them?

Is that going through that decision process?

Diana Murray: I think the simple, the one thing you didn’t say is every journey begins with one step. You know that once you’ve got once you’ve got a sense of direction. You know, I know I want to go north, so how am I going to get there? That’s when the practicality comes in. And then I mean, another thing from a very smart person was who can I listen to more?

Who can I talk to more and who can I ask for help? Those three things, if you know where you want to go, those three things will help to help you to make that first step. And if you don’t make the first step, you’re going nowhere. So and yes, it can be uncomfortable, but it sure as hell beats the alternative.

I mean, what if you if you do nothing, then what happens is you become gradually, gradually, sort of more and more fed up because you’re treading water in a situation you don’t want to be in. And if you’re an introvert, you can really drag yourself down very fast that way. So if you can help yourself to just make that first step, then that’s it’s the first thing you’ve got to do.

Matthew Pollard: Any that’s really good advice. And I think that what you really highlighted there is there’s two pieces. One is you need to be unrelenting at finding out what you’re passionate about. Then you need to be unrelenting at getting there. I think what a lot of people do is they start asking for advice on how to get there once they work it out, because they’re scared about what if I pick something that I can’t get to an outcome?

And, you know, I think anybody of status is used to people reaching out to them saying, I’m not really sure what I want, but how would I get there? And they it because of that, they almost have this barrier to people asking them because they only want you to, you know, everybody I’ve found is always willing to help and always willing to offer advice and guidance.

They want you to have help yourself first. And the best way to help yourself, I’ve found, is to know what you want and break through that barrier, or to find someone that can help you discover that for those those people that are in a situation where. They are trying to figure out what’s important to them, what’s their normal style, or that, you know, they’re trying to.

Figure out what’s the now the consecutive series of steps. Now they’ve figured out what that North Star is, if they have any questions or, would you where would you suggest that they go? And are you are you comfortable with people, you know, reaching out to you and asking questions?

Connect with Diana on LinkedIn!

Diana Murray: I’m very happy with people reaching out to me. As I know who they are, I so I don’t I routinely don’t accept invitations to connect with people that I’ve never heard of on LinkedIn. But if somebody mentions this and comes to me for help, I’ve tried. I’ve worked with interns over most of my career in IBM, so for a long time now, and it’s a joy to be watching how they’ve progressed and I’m always happy to talk to people about anything that will help them to make those decisions.

Because 90% of the time you do know the answer and all you’ve got to do is talk to somebody who will reflect back to you and to you. You refine what it is that you really care about. And by the way, it can change, you know, but you’ve got to have a sense of some sort of sense of direction and then take that first step.

And if that first step is to message you, me on LinkedIn and say, could you help me with this, then yeah, I’ll be happy. I don’t have answers. I don’t have answers to anything, but I sometimes know what the questions are to ask. And that’s probably the most useful thing you can have.

Matthew Pollard: I think it’s absolutely the most important thing, and I find that the best mentors understand that the answers are inside the person. It’s asking the asking for help. And, you know, I think that that that was a really kind of genuine, genuine offer. And I appreciate that. And, I mean, that’s the reason I invited you on. I got this sense that you just genuinely wanted to share your journey and genuinely wanted to help people.

And by the way, for those people that aren’t that big on LinkedIn, what Diane is asking you to do is you’re welcome to connect with her on LinkedIn. But don’t just click the connect button, click on the little three dots that says, would you like to send a personal invitation? And when when the box comes up, say, hey, I heard you on the Introverts Edge podcast and I would love to discuss or I would, you know, I would love to ask you or whatever that request is, or just say, I’ve heard you on the Introverts Edge podcast.

When she accepts, then you can ask your question. And I’m delighted to say, we we had, a great person on, on the podcast from the American Heart Foundation who talked about creating support groups inside the American Heart Foundation for introverts and thanks to, the podcast, there’s been a few people that have reached out to her that have now started, introverts support groups in their global organizations.

And so I, I know for a fact that introverts love to support other introverts. But, you know, I really think that for the people of that have never thought about what they wanted, they just hoping their boss gives them responsibility. You should before you reach out, think about what you actually want and spend some time helping yourself. And if you don’t have the answer, maybe you’ve only spent three minutes and maybe you should spend a little while longer finding that answer.

But then if you struggle, definitely ask for help. But I hope you got value out of today’s episode. I know for the reason why I really invited Deanna to come on is because I felt that somebody needed to highlight that you don’t need to have a specific step by step plan, you need to have a framework or a book.

But anybody as an introvert, even humble people that don’t want to be that shining star, can have very successful careers. But what they do need to be is understanding of their what they’re passionate about, and then be willing to do the work in order to get there. But and I so appreciate you coming on today, and thank you so much for all the value you’ve shared with my audience.

Diana Murray: Thank you. It’s been a lot of fun. Thank you.

Matthew Pollard: And for everyone watching. Again, thank you for tuning in. I so appreciate you sharing your ears with us for this time, and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Introverts Podcast. Cheers.